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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1200
   |
Posted - 2013.04.05 13:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Since you've already spent longer than it would take to vote explaining why you're not voting, you are irrational unless you can demonstrate that voting would actively harm you.
Voting/participation in a system is giving it your implicit consent. If you don't agree that a system should even exist, not voting is one of the only things you can do. That and possibly abstention (if you're allowed to give a reason and if you believe that reason will actually be wanted by the powers asking for it), but there is no abstain option for this election vOv.
Irrational in this case would be voting for the sake of it even though you don't believe in the institution itself (to say nothing of the candidates vying for positions in said institution).
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1200
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 14:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:The correct response is to run as or vote for a candidate on a platform of disbanding the CSM.
You should attempt to get elected to the CSM to attempt to disband the CSM because of your belief that the CSM is worthless and powerless? What was that about irrational again? 
Malcanis wrote:But most people who are against the CSM are against it on the basis of unsupported assumptions that are almost always directly contradicted by the evidence, and often by their own assumptions.
Oh I know they're wrong. I'm just saying that telling them to vote despite their lack of belief in the system is equally wrong (and also pretty much worthless for anything except justifying the institution's existence, which anyone who doesn't believe in the CSM isn't going to want to help).
If you have any interest in gaining a participant where there wasn't one previously, it's on you to convince them why they should care enough to vote. If you just want their vote and nothing more, you might as well drop the pretense and just pay them for it.
Malcanis wrote:You know, like people who say that the CSM is powerless and irrelevent, then in the same breath blame the CSM for things like the jump bridge nerf.
That didn't actually happen here, btw. Andski was the one who brought up the JB stuff.
Artctura wrote:A simpler statement is this. By not participating in the institution, you make the voices of those who do stronger.
How exactly is a lower voting turnout going to make the CSM's voice stronger?
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1200
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 14:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Artctura wrote:It's not. But it is going to make the voice of those who did vote stronger than yours.
And yet by voting for a candidate who (a) won't win or (b) wins but is ineffective, your voice remains equally weak while the others get stronger simply by your addition to the legitimacy of the system.
Of course that's kind of irrelevant if your reason for abstention is the belief that the system has no power at all.
Artctura wrote:If that's your choice, so be it. I won't even attempt to change your mind. The only way to accomplish your goal, outside of running on a campaign plank of eliminating the CSM, is to drive turnout to near zero, and CSM election turnout has continued to rise over the years. I wish you luck in accomplishing that.
Hey, I voted as I believe the system has (some) value. I can just really see why someone wouldn't - neither CCP nor this current CSM have done a hell of a lot to convince anyone that the CSM is worth participating in. Telling those people who aren't buying what's being sold the equivalent of "just shut up and vote already" is the worst possible way of effecting any actual change (if anything, you're just going to galvanize their opinion).
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1210
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 21:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:It's perfectly rational. Get 14 people who don't want a CSM elected, they all refuse to participate: the CSM will be effectively killed.
It's certainly more rational than spending time trying to kill the CSM by ineffectual forum whining.
That's a pretty ******** hypothetical, especially when the root of it is defending you being a lazy prick that just wanted to badger someone into voting on the outside chance they'd fire you somewhere on their list :v
It's also a massive assumption of yours that the forum whining is an actual literal attempt to "kill" the CSM, rather than just the same garden variety venting anyone does about anything. It's entirely possible (and very rational) that one could reach the conclusion that the CSM is worthless, refuse to validate its existence via participation, but at the same time realize that the CSM will continue as a thing so long as CCP wants it to, players be damned.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1215
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 21:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Artctura wrote:And let me ask you a simple question. What do you think CCP will be influenced more by? The people they bring to specifically spend face time with them, or someone posting on a forum.
Unless you're in one of the voting blocs that wields enough power to put a candidate in the Top 2, you no longer have any chance to choose who goes to Iceland, so that point is moot :v
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1215
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 21:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Artctura wrote:True, but even the non summit members of the CSM will have greater influence with CCP then the average forum poster.
Considering the average forum poster has zero influence, that's not saying very much.
baltec1 wrote:We are getting a POS update are we not?
Only because of a threadnought from a CSM member who had to defy the council's wishes and bring the issue directly to the massed playerbase on the forums. If Two Step would have left the issue with the CSM we'd have **** to show for it.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1215
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 14:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:yay, we get a bandaid fix that will put a fundamental POS rework off the table for at least the next 2 years.
great work CSM, thank you so very much!!!
When the alternative was "no bandaid fix and no fundamental POS rework on the table for at least the next 2 years", yes, we should thank Two Step (specifically him, not the CSM) for that. He shamed them into doing something when they were clearly quite content to do nothing.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1217
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 22:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:This is what happens when a CSM of the people really goes out there and has meaningful conversations with the average, run of the mill everyday player in new eden. With his pulse on the heartbeat of eve, this man could not possibly do anything less then give CCP the rich and informed feedback they need to take this game into the next decade and beyond.
You're really upset that he asked you to cite a claim you specifically made.
In case the point still flew miles over your head (a point fiying miles over the head of a thick as pig **** SMA shirtlord? NEVER), there's a big difference between "there's more alt accounts now than there was years ago" and "there's a steadily growing trend of alt accounts". If you still don't get it, maybe someone can draw it in crayon for you.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1217
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 23:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:The realistic facts are that only about 20% of EvE is in Null sece.
At this point, your'e really going to want to cite anything that starts with "The realistic facts".
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1217
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 03:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:I seem to have made you angry. I am pleased. And here is me drawing it in crayon for you, "there are more alt accounts now then there was years ago" and "it is do to a steadily growing trend". Guess what, these two ideas fit together quit nicely.
That makes about as much sense as someone trying to make a point in crayon.
Hint: to define that there is a growth trend, nevermind that it's steady, you need numbers, at the bare minimum a start and end, preferably with at least a FEW datapoints somewhere in the middle (you know, to show that silly "trend" part)
That's what Malcanis was asking for. You'd have recognized this if your IQ was higher than your shoe size.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1217
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:You can't prove that subs are not at an all time high via the growing trend of multiple accounts either. Now can you? I however have years of subjective experience, being that I have personally recruited at least 2,000 pilots into various corporations and alliances. I have dealt with individuals on forums that you have never even heard of and have been in contact with more then my share of pilots on a personal level for somewhere around 5 years.
Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Dumb guy. Hey.
If you make a claim, it's on you to prove that it's true.
Just FYI.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1217
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 19:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:I'll prove its true the day after CCP releases the numbers of how many subscribers have multiple accounts over the years
Right, that would be an essential piece of information one would need before a claim like this could be made. Pretty stupid to make such a claim without it, no?
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1217
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:That's fine if you are not fulfilling the role of a representative. If you are, you are expected to conduct yourself according to a certain code and ethic. .
And what "code and ethic" is this? "Don't call Eternum Praetorian out when he gets caught making **** up again"?
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1218
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Didn't you make it to high school yet?
I did, and finished it, years ago! Perhaps once you score your elusive Grade 10, you might suddenly realize that although representatives have a very vague job description ("representing common people", after all, is not exactly specific), they are also people and not robots, and as such are not prohibited from either (a) having opinions or (b) sharing them. This may cost them votes if they anger a certain segment of their audience, but that's their problem, not yours.
If anything, one should be very suspect of a representative who refuses to speak up in the face of abject stupidity, as that's the one person that doesn't care about representing players and instead cares solely about their own power and sees the person vomiting nonsense everywhere as nothing more than a potential vote.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1218
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 22:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Snow Axe promotes the corporate run and lobbied bullshit facade version of democracy. More news at 11:00!!
Are you actually seriously unironically trying to say that a representative needs to be literally capable of represting EVERY person ever, even though those very people may not even agree with each other?
Has it occurred to you, even for a second, that by calling out your stupidity Malcanis may have won votes? That may sound cynical, but in effect, by calling you out, he has effectively represented more than 1 person who had a problem with what you were saying, and that by remaining silent, he may have represented you effectively but ignored many others who had a problem with what you were saying?
Also are you aware that there is an entire spectrum of colors, and not just black and white?
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
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